Quick vid rec

[giandujakiss]

Pure Imagination. Doctor Who, Eleven and Amy.

It's really beautifully edited, and sort of simultaneously delightful and creepy as hell, because there's that definite pedophiliac vibe coming through the Eleven/Amy relationship.

Comments

[monanotlisa]

there's that definite pedophiliac vibe coming through the Eleven/Amy relationship.

In the vid, I can see what you mean - the juxtaposition of images, lyrics, and tone - but don't quite feel because to me, the source material does not tell the tale: the Doctor only really looks at Amy in That Way when he meets her as an adult, and not from the get-go either.

[giandujakiss]

I dunno .. I get that vibe a little even in the show. I mean, there's this weird implication that the Doctor intended to come back and take little child Amy as his companion, and obviously their views of each other are colored by their first meeting. And sapote just had a whole post about how their relationship is built somewhat on her childlike wonder at seeing the universe that he introduces to her. So ... I think there is something vaguely creepy there.

I still love them, and I totally 'ship them, but I've always been a smidge uncomfortable with the premise of their first meeting.

[monanotlisa]

Interesting (and I don't mean that in the "How's the food" answer way)!

I mean, there's this weird implication that the Doctor intended to come back and take little child Amy as his companion

Absolutely, and he would have. I just think it'd have lead to a different kind of relationship.

(Perhaps not at its true core, which I think is that sense of wonder I too mentioned in my review. But then again, it's the premise of Dr. Who and very much the raison de voyager for Rose and to slightly lesser degrees for Martha and Donna as well. It's always been all about the beauty (occasionally terrible) of the universe and the Doctor's wish to share them with someone who loves and understands and feels it.)

and obviously their views of each other are colored by their first meeting.

I wouldn't refute that; I just think your colours are a lot brighter than mine, and possibly outside the lines. ;) The...I hesitate to call it obsession on Amy's part because she's surprisingly sane and sensible: Amy's fascination with the Doctor was not childlike so much as the fascination of a child in the beginning, and his fondness for her was present but rather simple (which, I know, is not an adjective that suits the Doctor very well). But Amy grew up, and from canon we know that she made her boyfriend role-play as the Doctor in bed. It doesn't get much less childlike than that and leads me to believe that hoo boy, her perception of the Doctor has changed a lot - see also the ogling of his body when he undresses and re-dresses.

The Doctor seemed to think of her as a little girl for a while longer (but then, it was minutes for him when it was years and years, two-thirds of Amy's lifetime for her) but that too didn't last.

Of course, there's dialogue

("I grew up."
"I can change that.")

that does textually support your point, but to me, there is a definite shift in the Doctor in the episodes that follow, showcasing a new and interest in Amy as an adult and, what's more, as a woman, young and companion-y as she may be.

I don't want to over-sexualise the canon relationship...actually, wait, scratch that: I do! *g*

[giandujakiss]

Well, sure, if he'd grabbed little Amy I don't think he'd actually have molested her. But when a lonely adult man decides he wants his only friend to be a little girl ... I mean, there's a vibe there, and it can't be escaped just because of the science-fictiony premise.

It doesn't get much less childlike than that

Oh, I don't think so. Kids have sexuality - little Amy would have had sexuality. So to me, it's just as simple as they formed an attachment to each other when she was a child, he was ready to go travel around the universe with her. She grew up and her feelings may have changed but they're always colored by what she saw as a child - and the same is probably true for him, as well. It's just this odd thread that runs through the relationship.

[monanotlisa]

But when a lonely adult man decides he wants his only friend to be a little girl ... I mean, there's a vibe there, and it can't be escaped just because of the science-fictiony premise.

Is this vibe inherent in storytelling, though? Think of stories like Winterson's Lighthousekeeping. I wouldn't think so.

She grew up and her feelings may have changed but they're always colored by what she saw as a child - and the same is probably true for him, as well. It's just this odd thread that runs through the relationship.

Fair enough; the beginning informs who they are - just, from my perspective, doesn't ultimately determine their present state and emotional-slash-romantic awareness, if that's making any sense?

By the way, did you watch 5x05? :P

[giandujakiss]

Well, I haven't read Lighthousekeeping, so I can't say, but the factors that make the relationship between Doctor and Amy seem a bit odd that I don't believe are present in Lighthousekeeping are (1) the Doctor can have any companion - he chooses who he wants to hang out with - and so it's significant when he chooses a child; (2) the Doctor is a young, virile guy; (3) the story is about their relationship to each other; and (4) you know right from the beginning that Amy will grow up to be a love interest for the Doctor. And even leaving aside (4), it's pretty much (1) and (2) that does it for me.

[azdaja_dafema]

Thanks for that rec: I'm really loving those two.

[giandujakiss]

You're welcome!

[stewardess]

Watching the "previously on" of 5x05, it hit me over the head like a fluffy, sparkly hammer that the scene of Amy in her PJs, semi-flying next to the Tardis, was pure Wendy and Peter Pan. Then at the end of 5x05 I felt the Wendy and Peter vibe even more strongly: the doctor/Peter cannot grow up (that is, die) and Wendy/Amy is ready for a serious adult relationship, which the doctor/Peter cannot give her. Except, gloriously, Amy is NOT like Wendy in that she is perfectly happy to skip the damn grown-up relationship and move straight to the snogging.

But like Wendy zooming past Peter in maturity, Amy has zoomed past the doctor. If you look at their dynamic this way, then the doctor saying he can keep her from growing up feels a lot less creepy. Unless you find Peter and Wendy creepy, which is perfectly acceptable. :)

[monanotlisa]

There is, in fact, a whole picspam slash exploration of the Wendy/Peter and Amy/Doctor relationship parallels: http://valeryerock.livejournal.com/66053.html

Wendy/Amy is ready for a serious adult relationship, which the doctor/Peter cannot give her. Except, gloriously, Amy is NOT like Wendy in that she is perfectly happy to skip the damn grown-up relationship and move straight to the snogging.

Hee! I APPROVE OF THIS and would like to subscribe to your newsletter! :)

[giandujakiss]

I actually do find Peter and Wendy a little creepy, yes. You're right, there's definitely a Peter-Panish thing going on here, and I do appreciate the shift in that Amy's version of Wendy isn't really interested in playing house or the trappings of adulthood - she's just interested in the sex :-). But even though you're right, textually and in the analogy, the Doctor trying to keep Amy from growing up is meant to mean "Stay with me in eternal childhood," it still looks visually like an adult man trying to have a relationship with a child. And I think there's too much baggage just in our society about either molesting children, or just men who want childlike, docile women, to get rid of that vibe no matter what the intent was or what the other interpretations are.